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Post by Samielleus Prince on Jan 4, 2008 13:39:14 GMT -5
Sometimes "there are " and "I believe there are" can be blurred. Like humans, I do not believe that if you were made to do something then that's it, is what I'm saying. Someone who is good at math may choose a field in English simply becuase they love it. they will have to work twice as hard as someone to whom English comes natural, but its not impossible. Is it not unheard of that Seraphim, though a natural singer and praiser may not strive for something different, if not for a short time?
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Post by non-sequitur aeon on Jan 4, 2008 22:08:01 GMT -5
hmm...well, how about this....-puts on dr phil cap-....terro, in 200 words or less, how do you PERSONALLY 'define' what a seraphim 'is' (personal accounts and feelings, not just what texts have told us...so that way you would have to put your own belief on the spot as opposed to defaulting to aquinas'...that and most self-respecting angelkin already know the stories lol....rock on enoch!) ne way....prince, if i may request...outside of 'just feeling it' what made you come to the conclusion that you 'resonate' with that particular choir. or what do you do on a regular basis that would suggest that you're certainly a seraphim?...it's an interesting study on the discourse between an objective observer (terro) and one's personal belief (prince)... i sincerely hope you're gaining from one another. prince, i've always found that it's the eyes of adversity that offer the greatest repose. terro, i'm hoping this is your intention -takes off dr phil cap- well...umm....thanks for your time
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Post by Samielleus Prince on Jan 4, 2008 22:15:14 GMT -5
Well unfortunatly just feeling it is all we have. Like the religious person to faith, there's just no proof at times. Seraph has always resonated with me, and here's how I usually tell if something is "correct". When something is correct, no matter what it is, it resonates with others. this is the first time I've even encountered a group in which Prince the Seraph has not resonated, so I'm especially happy for this conversation.
Unfortunatly if its proof we're all looking for we'll never find it. but the fact that we have this discussion, the act of discussion is what's truely valuable at least to me.
I guess if you want a more specific answer, I'm afriad I'll need more specific questions :/. I've already stated why I feel I resonate with Seraph, so I suppose I'm just not getting my point across well.
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Post by non-sequitur aeon on Jan 4, 2008 22:43:00 GMT -5
proof would be nearly impossible...dun worry tho, angels are comprised mostly of feelings....so if you round up we are feelings lol
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terro
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Post by terro on Jan 4, 2008 22:50:10 GMT -5
I believe very differently there because of this.
The Human, while naturally talented in mathematics, may not have a personality suited towards it.
The Angel does. They are made that way.
edit: sorry had this up for a bit, never saw the updates...
Now for my definitions on the Seraphim.
The Seraphim are the Choir of Angels closest in location to the central throne of the Creator. The Choir of the Seraphim are uniformed in their true forms, that of six wings and a pair of eyes as by the ancient babylonian depictions.
The Seraphim's purpose is of paramount importance. I disagree with singing praise all the time, the Creator is not that pompous that she needs it, that was a medieval show for how great God was that there were Angels eternally singing praises. The Metatron is charged with being the herald of the almighty, bringing his word to where it must go. The seven famous plagues have previously brought forth Holy wrath, and the four horsemen wait to bring down theirs.
The Seraphim did not exist prior to the Fall of the Morning Star, as their purpose was only established after the wheels were set in motion by the Fall, for an apocalypse scenario.
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Post by Samielleus Prince on Jan 5, 2008 10:36:00 GMT -5
That would have been nice to know sooner Terro, then I wouldn't have struggled answering your questions (like when I asked for your definition much earlier). It would have made it easier for me to discuss instead of trying to figure out what it is you beleive.
That being said I disagree. Just becuase you have strong feelings for something, or memories does not make it correct, myself included. My memories greatly differ from yours and I'll have to diverge with you on your opinion of Seraphim.
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terro
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Post by terro on Jan 5, 2008 17:06:35 GMT -5
The question is this though? Why does your opinion diverge? Is it because of personal belief, or is it because of logical reasoning?
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Post by Samielleus Prince on Jan 5, 2008 21:52:19 GMT -5
A little bit of both. Its hard to think of things logical when dealing in abstracts. The way you present your arguments, at least thus far, leaves little room for interpretation. To imply that I've been speaking only on personal opinion and not notions direved from years of thought is slightly insulting. I've been around the block more than once on this subject and I come to the same conclusions after long trials and testing. Nothing I say is just a "hey I just thought of this today I think I'll use it as universal truth!" The bottom line is no one's memories are solid, no one's logic is solid and no "knowledge" holds meaning. Its the act of thinking that is in and of itself that is important.
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Post by luinbariel on Jan 5, 2008 23:40:10 GMT -5
I kind of have to agree with Prince here.
I'll admit I've skimmed through this quite a bit, as I don't really have much of a stomach for the topic, or much (if any) knowledge on it, however it seems like there's a LOT of "I remember it this way and it references with this, so it's true".
Um... I really REALLY find that hard to believe. Just because someone tells me that they were once so and so who served so and so, and that they REMEMBER this, doesn't mean you're right. Even if you are, it's exceptionally hard for someone else to just go along and believe that.
What about people who disagree with what you "remember" and consider to be absolute truth? Do you just discount them as being incorrect and move on?
I whole heartedly agree with Prince: NO ONE'S memories are solid; NO ONE's. I don't care who you may have once been or may even still be. Being open to other thoughts and opinions, THINKING about them, is what's important. That doesn't mean you have to give up your own views, but maybe entertaining those of others could lead you to new ones of your own.
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terro
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Post by terro on Jan 6, 2008 13:40:53 GMT -5
and Prince's perceptions are based on... what exactly?
She claims to be Seraphim based on what feels right, now looking at accepted definitions, they're not all met. The idea of singing praises all the time comes very much from what was expected of holy figures at the time. The wiser and holier a being was, they were then laying down pride and all that in order to just sing praises... this tells the people being told in latin about God that God is so great, that the smartest and oldest beings do nothing but praise him, don't you want to do what the smart and powerful people do?
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Post by Samielleus Prince on Jan 6, 2008 16:45:41 GMT -5
The point that is being made is that you tend to speak in absolutes (whether intentionally or not) and it throws the rest of us off a bit. Suggesting that one isn't using logic when speaking in a debate while speaking in absolutes based on one's own memories is just as bad as saying "it feels right" The singing praises IS an accepted text and is mentioned in the King James Bible, its an accepted text so then why are you only citing certain ones? Most likely becuase "it feels right" or "it feels most correct". Everyone's perceptions and memories are flawed.
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Post by luinbariel on Jan 6, 2008 16:46:55 GMT -5
Well I'm afraid that accepted definitions aren't really accepted by EVERYone; there are plenty of accepted definitions out there that are out dated and no longer useful.
Even if they were still to date, I have to say I don't believe or follow everything I'm told. I like to think for myself, rather than listen to what other people have been doing, no matter HOW long they've been doing it.
I didn't see your post there at first for some reason Prince; I have to agree with you as well.
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terro
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Post by terro on Jan 6, 2008 18:43:01 GMT -5
I do speak in absolutes, because in the grand scheme of things, it's either that way or it is not.
The King James edition of the Bible, again heavily translated and edited by men in power. What do you think would happen if someone terribly misquoted Jesus or the stories thereof 2,000 years ago. Would there be a change in the King James edition of the Bible? What source would they have to do that? If they did there goes all the rituals taken from Zoroastrianism, all the pagan practices and additions that were instituted by Roman Empires trying to use Christianity as a tool to unite the empire... the list goes on
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Post by luinbariel on Jan 6, 2008 19:31:59 GMT -5
... what about a third option; it is that way, it is not, or it is a little of both?
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Post by terro on Jan 6, 2008 20:00:40 GMT -5
it cannot be the way that it isn't, therefore "a little of both" is simply what it is, and if it is not that, than it is not.
Thusly there is no third option.
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