Choirs (from off topic Azure thread)

[Samielleus Prince]

Here is a recap.

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Terro: "...I believe in the case of ascended, it is something that is passed down from the Creator and the Creator alone."

Prince: "I don't quite see it that way, but possibly the creator puts the ability in each human to do so but not the realization. Maybe only he can give the life situations necessary to enable us to realize we can become more. So that way its more a test (as that seems to be the lay of the land so to speak) rather than The creator deciding all of a sudden that ascension is necessary for the individual. Maybe like a matter of choice vs destiny thing."

Terro: "Changing from the soul of a Human to becoming an Angel is a complete change of the structure of one's being. Being directly linked to the Creator and able to serve as a conduit for Her glory and consciousness. Attaining power of the nature of existence and the ability to form a weapon that can easily wound the soul itself. These things are not in the realm of something a Human is capable of without divine intervention. Something has to make you an Angel, you just prove yourself worthy of the honor."

Prince: "That I DO wholeheartedly agree with, and those sort of people are very rare, especially today (though that's probably wrong, all of history has its share of "bad times"). But it just seems like people today are particularly selfish, and many have sunk into a state of cosmic apathy. If you're Athiest or Agnostic then by golly be the best Atheist or Agnostic you can be. None of this "Bleh I don't care about nothing, just give me a beer some weed and a Xbox 360 and I'm good." (notice I did not choose "Wii" as that would involve effort). Even if you don't know God (and I know some will disagree) if you care for others and promote the well being of your fellow man, I think some consideration will be given to you. To serve others is to serve God, in my opinion, and I think He would take that into account when choosing servants."

Terro: "I think you're missing my point...my point is basically this, the notion that mankind is so amazing and important is fostered by books and religions made by men in power that wanted to attract followers and thus depict man as holy and blessed and that this world is the center of the universe. Service and worthiness might make you worthy of the honor, but it's gotta be a whole lot of worthiness to be noticed, and then there has to be the need for another Ascended."

Prince: "Oh ok, I must have mis read. And yeah, people think they are the center of the universe (especially some family members I could mention, but won't >.<) That is compounded by Steven Hawking's new scientific theory of multiple universes through black holes. So not only is there one universe...but infinite amounts of them! Make a person feel small, eh?"

Terro: "It does, which is why others will strive to assure you that you are truly unique... my issue is, Humans are unique and special... just like everything else (Elves, Fae, Dragons, so on and so forth)."

Prince: "Yes indeed, and I think human or kin EVERYONE has a need to feel like they play some huge role in the universe, which is why you never have ork or troll kin, or even imp kin. This is NOT to say that people choose what they are in anyway, but sometimes one has to wonder WHY there are so many say, Seraphim running around instead of just normal angels (yes, I include myself in all this. No exceptions, everyone has that need to feel special)

In my defense (from myself xD) I never choose to be Seraphim, I just am. And that in and of itself doesn't make me important or special, I serve god just like all other holy angels do. Its when god calls us to do something, that's when we are truely unique or special."

Terro: "No one ever chooses to be any specific choir, honestly I don't even believe that there are that many of the upper Echelon. I believe when it comes to Seraphim, there are only twelve of them, and rare is it they do anything outside the core of the Silver City."

Prince: "Well I'll have to disagree with you on that, Terro but obviously you're entitled to your beliefs as I am mine. I do think though if you're good, ask really nicely and God finds you worthy, you can be exalted. Haha I could be like the 13th Apostle, Rufus! xD *Dogma reference* Maybe there were later Seraphim who got promoted from other choirs or other bits of existence, that weren't originally part of the 12? who knows, only the Creator for sure."

Terro: "I don't feel that asking nicely is all there is to it. Your Choir is your direct family, changing it is not so easy as changing your office location. I do believe that Angels do change choir, I believe I did, but it doesn't come from asking, it comes from proving yourself worthy and thereby being re-assigned to fill in a higher position. You can't fill in that position if there is no position to be filled. I believe in the 12 Seraphim having one very specific purpose, which has not changed since the beginning, nor will it change. The other choirs, especially the Angels Choir rapidly expands and needs a great many to fulfill those jobs."

Prince: "Well I'm going to choose the "Ask nicely" route becuase I really don't think I'm worthy enough to be one, but as it doesn't really matter what I think, I only do things and go places the Creator asks me to go. And He made me a Seraph because he wanted me to be one (as I believe I did ask, as I'm not sure what I was before but I wasn't originally a Seraph, just a spirit perhaps? not sure.) I know I'm not one of the twelve, nor would I ever presume so much of myself. All i know is I've 6 wings, a diadem, and the nickname "Prince" as I don't know what my "true" name is yet. And in the end, I don't really think it matters. If God wants me to become a lizard with 5 feet then so be it."

Terro: "What is it that makes you believe you are a Seraphim?
If you were granted a job, the only reason is because you were worthy of it. The Creator doesn't deal with Structural employment issues."

Prince: "What makes you believe that you are one of the forty with students and one with the earth? I can only assume becuase you have tested it true. I have tried to deny it, test it, and have been trying to find less grandiose forums to equate myself to. Each time I came back to the belief that I am a Seraph. If I am wrong then there is only one I need to answer to, and even if I'm very wrong I know he will not judge me, only if I go against his teachings."

Terro: "never really said I was one with the Earth, my name relates to it, but that's all. The name Jethro means "friend of God" but it doesn't mandate that every person named Jethro is a faithful servant. What makes me believe are my memories, honestly for a long time I did believe I was nothing special, just an old Angel. These things did not feel right to me, and somewhere in the back of my mind I actually considered the possibility that I was Seraphim. After a while, several friends got me to stop being so modest as to deny that I was anything other than an old fogy and accept the possibility of being something greater. I then started using the term Seraphim, one of my friends chuckled, though I never knew why until later. As I continued, the term Seraphim (which I assumed because I believe my true form is that of the six wings and eyes) seemed to fit less and less, wrong label on the jar so to speak. Then I started remembering why. The Seraphim had a very specific purpose, there were twelve, the first was the Metatron, the voice and herald of the Creator, the next seven controlled what we know as the plagues of Egypt, and the last four will come as what we will recognize to be the four horsemen of the Apocalypse. I really didn't fit there. That was when the friend who chuckled basically shook me around and went, "dude, quit pussy footing around and accept who you are." That was when I accepted my belief of being of the Forty.

I still question it, but my beliefs have shown me no other recourse. I know it makes me sort of hypocritical, I see that most people who use the term Seraphim mentally suffer from the idea that because you are more powerful than Human imagining, you must be a very high ordered Angel. The problem is that even the Angels choir is beyond the capacity of Human possibility. The Ascended can't go toe-to-toe with even the meakest of true Angels, Ascended however can do a number on very lesser spirits, Human souls, certain chaotic entities, they just aren't the heavy hitters."

Prince: "See take everything you just said, only reverse it, that was my experience. When I felt what was true, I thought to myself "no way, it must just be me being narcissistic." So I actively tried my best to find "lesser" forms and see if they were true to what I was, but nothing was right. Once in a while I'd go back to Seraph and every time I did I felt as if it was "right" this was over a span of about 6 or 7 years now and I still do that, try to see if I m in fact not what I know and feel is true.

Though I do feel now that I was not originally a Seraph, but promoted by completing a task. I'm writing an allegory about it now and the fact that its flowing so freely from me is both scary and exciting. I'll probably post it here for critique and editing later. I was not originally a weaver either...just a spirit I suppose. Maybe a mortal creature from one of the world previous, that I don't know."

Terro: "See here's the thing that doesn't fit though. What do the Seraphim do? With what you say about what you do and where you go, it doesn't fit into what the Seraphim are believed to do.

Additionally my doubt is chiefly why I don't go on about being one of the forty, I have it on my banner mainly as a seed to see if anyone else knows what it is. If they do that will corroborate my belief."

(continued in post 2)

[Samielleus Prince]

Prince: "And that is why I say I am Seraph, try and create as many images of myself (current) as I can and ask people thier reactions to my name. Seraphim priase the lord and sing his blessings, at least from what I've read in scripture. Sure I'm not one of the original twelve but I think that singing the lord's blessings comes in many forms. In the allegory The lord asks me to come see him and praise him and that is all that he wants from me, though I was not a Seraph at that time. Just to make sure we're on the same page what is it, you feel, is a Seraph's true job? Also, what Seraphim are beleived to do is written by man, so after reading your previous posts, why would you put so much stock into something you know is written by humans on this subject? Do you have memories of Seraphim and saw what they did? Please share, I'd like to know."

Terro: "While I do support that not everything written by Humans is correct, many things are, yet are just mis-interpreted.
I recall the Seraphim singing praise and all that, except constantly being in the exact same place. Not so much the Human written idea of doing nothing but singing praise for all eternity, but so much as watching and waiting for their time to come."

Prince: "I'm not trying to purposely make connections with seraphim but here's how I interperate myself into that:

I beleive that my time hasn't come yet. I mean I don't think I've done anything particularly fantastic with myself and I feel like my purpose hasn't been shown to me yet, despite asking and being "ready to go already!" And while I have lost most of my musical talent in humanity I can sing, often best while singing church hymns in latin. I can't sing in english at all for some reason, not to where it sounds good (this is not me assuming, this is what I've been told by others and I agree).

Though I DO diverge from the Seraphim being in the same spot. That I simply can't seem to do. It is part of my vary nature to change, morph, forge new avenues when trapped, and never stay in one place too long. (geeze, I feel like I'm talking about myself too much @_@). But the best way I can describe my inner self is to relate to the element of Volcanic (a combination of earth and fire that acts like water). That's my nature in a nutshell.

But Prehaps being that way, in a constant state of flux, is in a way being in one place. I'm never still, that would be a change of place in comparison to my one consistencey: change. As for physical place, if the Seraphim are always with god, always closest to him, and he is everywhere and everything, wouldn't it make sence for his closest angels to be spread out, one in every place where God can be found?"

Esperum: "In all honesty, I've found choirs to be of little significance in matters of celestial workings....and even less so, if at all, while corporeal. It may be nice to know where one 'came from' or is....but realistically, self evaluation of one's abilities and innate gravitations will do better to determine their identity....It's interesting to me how caught up some can get (I'm speaking in VERY general terms and am not referring to any board members so much as this argument in whole) into the nomenclature of themselves and how little they may simply 'live it'. Perhaps I'm just being a bit ostentatious but it seems as though our humanity gets the best of us in the desire to label and be labeled. Let's not forget that Aquinas' system (though quite sound and one i resonate with) is not the only work written on celestials...dunno though I'm ranting.....just saying that we're all family and while the connection is omnipresent the attention isn't always 'tuned'...so don't worry so much about the connotations if your intuition guides you to a name, choir, order, etc....i merely suggest not to place too much importance on it."

Terro: "I agree that choirs have little to do with anything while incarnated, and really your job is your job while you're up there, choir is not a large portion of what you do.

Here is my point. If it has fur, paws and it barks it's a dog as the old saying goes. I've met people who claim to be Angels yet claim to not serve any divinity nor even acknowledge any, bear no messages to no party, do not associate with order and does not guard or guide anything or anyone."

[terro]

So here's the question then, what do we define as the classifications of Angels?

Where do we define the Seraphim as being?

[Samielleus Prince]

I find it hard to define any of the angels, as different texts say different things about them and we in our human bodies are limited in our understanding and ability to see, esepcially when higher beings are blocking thier true names and even forms from us.

I can't speak for defining something that is, supposedly, the closest to the undefinable. Another token to my possible seraph status, I have the hearest time defining and knowing myself. Everytime I think I have myslef pinned, I change or something new happens to send me back to square 1.

[terro]

Out of so many references and texts I have found most of what Thomas Aquinas wrote to be reliable. I diverge from Summa Theologica less than I diverge from anything else.

[Samielleus Prince]

Hmm from what I read its pretty darn vague though. One thing I was thinking on last night was this: Ever notice how the lower down on the "angelic Totem pole" you go the more description of an angel there is? We know what your standard angel is like, looks like, feels like and etc. But the higher ups like the virtues, the powers up on to the Cherubim and Seraphim all have little or unspecific descriptions. I think this may go with the idea of the closer you are to the creator the more fluid in form and identity you'd become. (based on my idea of God being the infinite everything-ness, it would make sense. The closer you are to the physical plane the more "limited" you are in forms and the more humans will know about you.")

[terro]

The closer an Angel is to the physical plane, the more cases there are to be observed. the Angels of contemplation, like the Seraphim, barely ever leave the throne of the Creator. Obviously there will be a little less information about them on Earthly texts.

[Samielleus Prince]

Still, the idea of God, or the creator existing in one place, rather than being the entirety of existence at once is a little bit hard for me to swallow. If God is in and of itself, all of existence, wouldn't its servants be everywhere too? Who's to say Seraphim are placed in one spot, other than that spot being a major hub of communication between existence and its compartmentalized selves. Maybe the original Seraphim serve as spokes on the hub, distributing information through out existence. Maybe the other, non original Seraphim are simply remote spokes from the hub, placed strategically to communicate with the remote places in the cosmos? Yet again, just pondering out loud.

[terro]

I never said they encircled the Creator, only the throne.

Yes there are Angels everywhere, controlling a great many things. That however is not the job of the Seraphim, or largely the Angels of Contemplation.

[Samielleus Prince]

How can you be so certain of that though? Saying that it is not the job of all of something places a limitation. Perhaps its not the job of some Seraphim but how can we know its not the job of all Seraphim? Cogs have specific jobs but when needed they can serve other purposes other than to make a clock tick (if you take a large cog, for example, you could use it as a weapon, or a wedge to keep something from moving, and etc).

And perhaps thrown isn't the best word to use (at least to me) as that implies a central place where the lord sits. Maybe a better word would be alter? I know its called a throne everywhere but it just doesn't sit right with me.

[terro]

by throne, it basically means the absolute center of the Silver city, the highest point of the first creation.

The question is this, what is the job of a Seraphim, then? Going around all over the place is in the description of the Angels of the Cosmos and the Angels of Earth (Earth used broadly here, mainly meaning the physical planes).

[Samielleus Prince]

Throne has its meanings to some people, but to me its not suitable. I know you're very strong in your convictions about your version of heaven so I wont get into that. Hub is a better word for me so that's what I'll use to describe it.

I also think we're harping too much on the job rather than the individual Seraph. If you look at humanity, specific types of human don't have specific jobs. Due to social constraints, yes, there are jobs that certain races are predisposed to get, hence why we have stereotypes. And to some degree, that is as uncontrollable as God telling you your place.

Also, in some faiths they beleive that there are over 30 seraphim (I've found a few places with varying numbers) so how can we know for sure that there are just 12? Memories, in my experience, are less reliable than we think they are as often times crucial info is blocked from us until we're ready to see it (My memories were truthful for a time but they omitted GREAT parts of the truth becuase I was not yet ready to know the whole truth.)

We have the small evidence of "sing onto god at his alter" but that's so vague, especially when singing and alter can be many things. If god is everywhere than even the mundane things found on earth can be an alter. How do we know that comforting someone during tough times is not a form of singing God's praises, for to praise living is to praise existing is to praise god. Singing and softly speaking evoke the same results, a soothing of the soul thus promoting hapiness and the joy of living.

[terro]

Humans are quite different, Humans are not created specifically with a set of tools, talents and abilities to do the job in which they are assigned. It has nothing to do with stereotypes here in our society on Earth, and I see no particular race predisposed to a certain job, as a matter of fact I find that to be a very racist statement.

In the sense of a job, an Angel is created for the job, and along certain patterns. If they have a job under the heading of the Seraphim, match the aura and characteristics of a Seraphim, and are called to the Seraphim, they are Seraphim.

My point in saying there are only 12 comes from my own memories. There are texts that claim that every blade of grass has an Angel coaxing it to grow, what I am mainly stating is this: If someone claims to be a Power, but instead of guarding heaven, they chiefly guard Humans throughout their lives and have never even been close to Heaven. They have nothing about them that is anything like Powers at all, but still claim to be a Power.

What you seem to be arguing is that Seraphim is a term for an individual and not a job. What I am arguing is that Seraphim is a term for a job, as are the other choirs.

[Samielleus Prince]

terro said:

, as a matter of fact I find that to be a very racist statement.


My point in saying there are only 12 comes from my own memories. There are texts that claim that every blade of grass has an Angel coaxing it to grow, what I am mainly stating is this: If someone claims to be a Power, but instead of guarding heaven, they chiefly guard Humans throughout their lives and have never even been close to Heaven. They have nothing about them that is anything like Powers at all, but still claim to be a Power.

What you seem to be arguing is that Seraphim is a term for an individual and not a job. What I am arguing is that Seraphim is a term for a job, as are the other choirs.

1) It is a racist statement, but I was only posing it to get an idea out there. I don't agree with the necessarily but a lot of people use it as a reason to get hand outs, go figure. ("OMG i was born with XYZ condition therefore I'm predisposed to be illiterate, waaa!") so you can't say that the statements were without a grain of truth to them. Human individuals set their own limits at times.

2) You can't discredit all texts becuase they have divergent ideals from your memories. I've learned the hard way that not all memories are sound, there may be more Seraphim, or more details about them that you simply don't remember yet. Though the argument between Seraphim as job and Seraphim as individual is very intriguing and could be the root of the discussion. Are the Choirs jobs or are they specific groups of angels created with certain characteristics that make them differ from other choirs?

As I'm sure you've found, I see Seraphim as a type of angel, not a type of job. I'm kind of allergic to placing limits on a self by saying their very "condition" for lack of a better word is in and of itself simply a task to be done. If you're given one task, and you are needed elsewhere then go elsewhere (I suppose my viewpoint about jobs in general shape this idea. some people see their job as "the thing they'll be doing for the rest of their life". Where as i view jobs as a means to an end, a way of getting from point a to point b and that job can and will change many times before I die.)

As to claiming to be something without really knowing what it is, its kind of a moot point as how can any of us be fully sure what anything is. That's a point many do NOT like to think about nor even address but the cruel fact is there could be no otherkin, we could all be nutsy, and etc. But I think the very fact that one can address this without fear and with as much objectivity as is possible proves that there is more to us than meets the eye (heehee transformers! I wanna be Bumblebee!). All i can say is right now, as it has always been Seraph has always been right to me, I can only strive to understand why its right and the more I think on the vagueness of texts and varying forms I think it fits now more than ever.

Also, with the vagueness of their description is simply doesn't make sense for them to stay in one place, it goes against the nature of the limitless. This could bolster the idea of God being everywhere and wanting his Seraphim to sing his praises where he is, not just at a hub in heaven. That could also explain why when i was broke up, I lived as three people simultaneously in three different places where i was needed. I need to think on that a whole lot more.

[terro]

if you notice, that when I say things about the number of the Seraphim, I do not say "there are" but rather " I believe there are." Major difference, which then is not discounting sources, but rather disagreeing with them and taking most of my information from the source that seems most accurate.

When you talk about a Seraph, you talk about an Angel of a specific choir and job description, in the case of Angels this also means a type of Angel. Here's the kicker though, if you are to talk about a Lawyer, and what lawyers do... Do Lawyers work in shop-rite stores stocking shelves? Do Lawyers work as their primary occupation being professors of mathematics or Biology? No, an individual Human could become a lawyer and then change occupation, then again Humans are born with whatever they get and whatever they attain and choose which path they are best suited for. Angels are told which path. There is a great freedom to that, not to say that Angels don't have that freedom, but they are built for what they are intended to do. They are always suited to the job.

The statement you are now making is that Angels are like Humans. You might cite the stereotype that people of Jewish descent are more apt to become bankers or financiers, this is because Christianity considered it unethical to loan people money and expect interest on it, when inflation occurs, you cannot expect more money back. Not many Christians got into loaning money out because of this, Judaism did not have this constraint. Unfortunately here, Angels are all from the same social stock, all from the same spot different mold, but fitted for their job. If you were created to be a Seraphim, then you would do the job of a Seraphim. If you were created to be a Throne, then you would do the job of a Throne. There is no "waa, I don't like this job even though I was created with all the necessary talents and abilities and even personality to go along with it, please oh great Creator give me something more glorious" to go next to a person coming from an underprivileged family wanting welfare and a better job without the pre-reqs.