Thoughts on the church

[Nemmy]

What I see is that mankind has taken all religon out of religon. I you go to a large church in my area, they ahve gift shops and cafes in them. that industrializes the religon takeing all meaning away from it. The cafe may allow for a more casual way for fellowship but thats all. You dont need a gift shop in a church. For the sake of Kami, that just makes the church look fake in my opinion.

Any thoughts on this or thoughts on the church in general?

[Samielleus Prince]

Well while I don't agree with the gift shop I can see why they would have one. The Church depends on donations to keep on chugging along and with a declining church going population coupled with all the scandals and selfishness that is our generation, I can see the need for one. But I think if Jesus saw what was going on, he wouldn't be too happy about it, like back in the day when people were using a Synagog as a place of trade and gambling.

[terro]

I am on the fence about the Catholic church. I think they've got it together on the whole, but I think individuals keep messing it up. Being the largest organization in the world, the most powerful organization in the world and the longest lived business/empire the world has known, numbers prove that there will be more nutjobs that mess things up.

[Samielleus Prince]

They have been getting better in recent year, at least in my area. Back in the day everything was all fire and brimstone, and a priest told me I was going to hell...when I was 8 . And there were some traditions that kind of bothered me, as a young child with an inquisitive mind, but they always brushed me off saying I shouldn't think about it, just follow. But now a days its gotten a lot better. They want you to question now. I think the big thing they really need to do though is allow priests to marry. I also know many women who'd love the job.

[luinbariel]

I personally don't really believe in the church. I don't really have any huge biases against it or anything. I guess it works for some, and not for others.

I think the most interesting thing about churches are the trends and patterns of people who attend and don't attend over the years. By this I mean the number of people attending church declining in recent years, then increasing again as certain global-scale disasters take place.

I don't mean that in a rude way, not at all; I find it interesting, somehow. Not sure why, never had ties with the church really.

[Samielleus Prince]

I think my parents played a huge role in me not being a regular church goer. Early on in the marriage (with the birth of my severly mentally and physically handicapped brother) the family dynamic became very dark, very cynical. That in turn meant we didn't go to church much for understandable reasons. And as a kid, I much prefered to stare at the beautiful paintings of the angels and holy figured that were all over my old church (which was very old itself) thank listen to anything the clergy had to say. Despite many horrible memories associated with the school I went to, I'd still like to go back and be in that church to look at those lovely paintings and statues.

[terro]

I think the people moving away from the church is just another cycle society goes through.

how many times has Human society waxed and waned religious? People move away after relatively good times, and they become content with their lives and feel powerful to change it all. Then disasters happen and where do most people return? Religion for people on the whole, seems to be something to go to when you feel you cannot help yourself or need something totally abstract to help, and it's that belief that draws them back.

During the Cold War years, many were in churches, praying for peace or for the survival of the US and the Free World as the sheer number of chances for nuclear holocaust were immense and they had no power to stop it.

[luinbariel]

That's exactly what I was getting at, although I was thinking some people might see religion as more of a last resort when all else has failed in times of trouble. After all else has failed, what else is left? That works for some, I suppose.

[terro]

really, people cite natural disasters and war now... Really though, except for those in the disasters that occurred, it's just the knowledge that it happened. For the wars, it's not like the Cold War in which the USSR was a serious threat, everyone knew it. Now we have terrorists which most people seem to put up as a paper tiger, they don't feel any danger from terrorists in the way that the free world did from the quite possible nuclear war between the US and the Soviets.

What is there to fear? Once we find something, once something rears its ugly head, we'll have reasons to fear again, and religion will become the norm.

[luinbariel]

The norm for some, perhaps. I guess that just verifies that I'm abnormal? I dunno.

[terro]

and can it be a result of the environment you were raised in that contributes to that? Can it be the lack of fear or similar situation that created the environment?

[luinbariel]

It can be those things, sure, and it can be others. I was given any oppertunity I wanted to believe what I wanted; exposure to religion, but not pressure to accept it. I had a choice, and I made it, based on what I wanted. Not what I was told I should do.

Lack of fear? Hardly. Try being young parents moving from Holland with no english, two young children and a third one in the oven moving to a province/country where no one wants to accept you. Then, add in an occupation full of uncertainties; farming. Laugh if you will, but unless you've experienced farming on a LARGE scale, you have no idea how scary that can be, how many variables your survival depends on.

[terro]

then in that case it can possibly throw the other end in, a great amount of people do leave religion for the opposite reason, the belief that if God was real and was so great, they wouldn't suffer so.

I fully understand, farming is cut-throat, especially with the government subsidies and the competition, you're either a large farmer who can walk all over the smaller ones and make it difficult for workers, not to mention the reliance on weather and many other factors of the environment and the market, or you're a small farmer struggling to make some buck against huge farm corporations or families, you can barely afford to eat and don't grow enough to make a profit. Then the small farmers leave and the responsibility to produce enough of certain things, which seems to switch season to season or lose the government subsidies... it's no joke.

[luinbariel]

Well no, it's not really that belief, either.

It doesn't have to fit into cookie cutter answers all the time.

[terro]

maybe not for you as an individual, but it is a factor in society as a whole.

Keep in mind, I left the church because I disagree with doctrine based on thinking I have wings coming out of my back. That's not a factor in a large portion of society either.